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11:48 am August 4, 2010
| Arlen
| | Colorado | |
| PTC Tiger | posts 15 | 
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Hi Chris (and peanut gallery)!
I've been listening to your podcast ever since I found it last year when I volunteered to be a Tiger Den Leader when my son hit 1st grade. The information has been invaluable as I found my way through that first year. Turns out there's a lot that goes into den/pack meetings that I wasn't aware of when I went through Cub Scouts! As a den we had a blast and all of the boys advanced and are back for more this year (plus a couple more, and that's before join night).
But this year I'm stepping up to Cubmaster, so it's back to training, reading through the literature and getting my bearings for what is necessary to make the pack meetings fun and exciting while still learning something along the way.
This brought me to Roundtable this week for the first time. I went to see what sort of information was availalable. It turns out to be good stuff and lots of it! With one exeption, as far as I can tell:
During the breakout session, one of the trainers told the group that according to the Academics and Sports Program Guide each Cub Scout is supposed to take off all the beltloops each year and re-earn them. She swore it was in the front of the program guide, but I looked all through it and couldn't find anything to that effect. In fact, I had never heard of that before, in any context.
Anyone hear of that before? I know it can be earned more than once (in our pack we only buy the beltloop for the first award) but I had never heard that they "expire" at the end of each year.
Thanks everybody; I think I know the answer I just thought I'd run it by those that have a bit more experience with the program.
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12:58 pm August 4, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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That's new to me. I'd say the person is misinformed. You looked and I know I've looked and it says nothing about this in the Beltloop book.
I'd suggest a new rule. When anyone hears something silly like that, the response should be "Show me where it says that please."
(The Scouting equivalent of "Pics or it didn't happen!")
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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1:31 pm August 4, 2010
| Ken
| | Scranton, PA | |
| PTC Bear | posts 70 |  
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The only thing I've found that comes close to that is this:
"Many Webelos Scouts may earn belt loops and pins a second time to qualify for Webelos activity badges. All boys may earn belt loops more than once; however, leaders should encourage boys to try different requirements and earn the pin. Packs should have a clear policy in place to determine whether the pack or the boy's family will be responsible for the cost of awards that are earned more than once."
It suggests you can earn them again, but it in no way says you have to remove your old ones.
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1:50 pm August 4, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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That's one of the reasons why I suggest to my younger families and dens that they not work on the Citizenship Beltloop – they absolutely must earn it again as a Webelos, so instead take that time and use it to focus on some other Beltloop or Scouting project. With somewhere around 50 of them now there's plenty of variety to choose from.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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2:22 pm August 4, 2010
| Kris
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That's funny, because I was trained the same way…that a scout could "re-earn" the belt loop for each rank (my son has 4 swimming loops). It was explained to me that the theory is that they earn the loop as a Tiger/Wolf then it's expected that as Bears/Webelos they earn the pins. I'll have to look/ask to see where that came about. I do know that around here I'll get the "that's the way we do it" answer and on this one, I can live with it as long as it means that people are using the program. Up until I got involved very few Packs were using it AT ALL.
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2:43 pm August 4, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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We always do it as a "you can re-earn it as often as you like" system, generally no one tries to earn it more than 1x per program year (like the Leave No Trace Award). But if a boy has already earned and received the loop we won't re-present it to him unless the parents specifically want us to (because they're the ones paying for beltloops).
If we gave the boys another beltloop every time they re-earned it we'd have boys with beltloop bandoleers across each shoulder. My Webelos II would have at least 7 each of the Archery, BB and Swimming beltloops at least from all the camp sessions he's done.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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I went to the book and there is NOTHING that says that they "expire". We try to save the major ones like citizenship for the Webelos because they do have to re-earn any that they have gotten before. We have been really enjoying the program because the boys don't just want the belt loop they want the pin too. I love to see the motivation.
I have gotten to the point when I have someone tell me something like this I have them show me. I have learned the hard way that there are scouters out there that make up or change things so that it is the way they think that it should be.
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Committee Chairwoman for pack 35
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3:06 pm August 4, 2010
| Ken
| | Scranton, PA | |
| PTC Bear | posts 70 |  
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I need to look at the book, but are the requirements static, or do they take ability level into account. That is, do they take into account increased skill as they scout becomes more adept.
What may be challenging for a Tiger might be nothing to him as a Webelos. The challenge should increase with the ability, or at least be flexible enough to be tailored to the individual's ability.
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3:24 pm August 4, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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You can see all of the requirements at usscouts.org: http://usscouts.org/advancementTOC.asp
I just went and looked at all the academic beltloops and all of them had the same requirements regardless of age/rank, which is what I was pretty sure was the case. That to me is one of the upsides of the program, beltloops and other awards like Crime Prevention, Emergency Preparedness, Donor Awareness and the 2010 Award ribbons – that the requirements are the same throughout all age levels. That makes them great for planning things to do at Pack Meeting, campouts and other events where boys from all age levels will be present. It allows them all to work together and for the younger kids to get some interaction with the older boys (and vice versa).
Back to the more specific point of the Original Poster's question though, I was thinking further about the whole idea that beltloops should be removed at the end of the year and that just seems kind of unsettling to me. Talking about earning the beltloop multiple times is kind of besides the point which was about if it says somewhere that boys should take off all beltloops earned at the end of the program year. I cannot think of many instances where a boy is required to remove an award from his uniform. Obviously there are some – when a Cub Scout gets his Webelos badge and either has to remove the diamond Tiger rank to put on the diamond Webelos rank or remove all the diamond rank badges to put on the oval Webelos badge; the progress towards ranks totem for Wolves/Bears comes off the uniform after he receives his Bear rank and moves on to Webelos and likewise the Tiger Totem comes off when the boy moves on to Wolves; the previous rank badge is removed and replaced at the Boy Scout level when he earns the next rank – but in all these instances it isn't so much about removing what was earned as it is about replacing it with the next step. The progress towards rank totem isn't needed anymore after the ranks have been earned, he has a Wolf and Bear badge on his chest to signify that. Same with the Webelos patch or the Boy Scout rank patches.
To me, having the boys take beltloops off their uniform at the end of each program year seems to be counter to the Advancement & Recognition method of the BSA in general. The Cub Scout belt (and the beltloops that go on that belt) are a permanent part of the official Cub Scout uniform. It just doesn't make sense to have them remove an award from their uniform if they haven't earned something else that replaces the one they have.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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3:55 pm August 4, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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I just checked all the Sports Beltloops as well and all requirements are the same regardless of rank. Now for the pins that may be a different matter, but I would bet they're all the same requirements as well regardless of age.
The Leave No Trace Award and the World Conservation Award are the only two awards I can think of right off the top of my head that can be earned by all levels of Cub Scouts that have the requirements change each program year (also, Tigers cannot earn the World Conservation Award).
While we're on it, here's a point to ponder. In the requirements for the Map & Compass Beltloop #2 is for the boy to explain how a compass works. The intro to the beltloop requirements specifically mentions that Tiger Cubs can earn this beltloop (working with their Adult Partners). However, if you look at the Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities appendix to the Guide to Safe Scouting, for Map & Compass under the Tiger Cub section is says "Map Only." How's that work? I suppose a Tiger could be taught and explain how a compass works without actually handling one, but that seems rather difficult to me.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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4:28 pm August 4, 2010
| MISS Liberty
| | California | |
| Admin
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Hmm… I was trained in the same manner as many have mentioned – a belt loop can be earned each year. However, we always say in our pack that belt loops will not be given out *again* (unless a family wants to pay for the purchase), it's just another ceremony to recognize the accomplishment. That's a cost effectiveness thing, not any official rule.
I do recall reading/hearing/seeing somewhere that for requirements (specifically Webelos requirements like Citizenship, various sports belt loops, Computers & Communication belt loops for Communicator, etc.) they should be earned within that rank. In other words, if a junior Webelos earns the Computers belt loop and then works on his Communicator badge, he's fine, but if he earned it as a Wolf, no go, he needs to earn it again. That may not be rule and law, but I don't see why it's a big deal since the belt loops are easy to earn and it's a good "refresher".
It only makes sense, since it would be sort of odd to use, say, a service project done years before for a current rank or other achievement requirement. Why would belt loops not be "current" per rank, too?
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"[S]He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which." ~ Douglas Adams
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5:11 pm August 4, 2010
| Ken
| | Scranton, PA | |
| PTC Bear | posts 70 |  
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I found the requirements and see that, yes, they are specific regardless of age or ability.
My thought was (and this is completely hypothetical, I know this isn't how it is) that swimming could have a "Swim 5 laps using any stroke. Attempt to beat your previous best time (if not your first attempt)" or something like that. Something like that would increase the challenge in relation to each individual scout's ability.
But that's the Boy Scout leader in me. I need to unlearn that. :)
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7:06 pm August 4, 2010
| ScouterAdam
| | Portland, OR | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 86 |  
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Arlen:
First off, congratulations on jumping with both feet first into being the Cubmaster after being the Tiger Den Leader. I did the same thing and I am headed into my second full year of it. I would not change it.
Before I get to your question a couple of tips:
Go to all the Roundtables you can.
If you have a Unit Commissioner, find and talk to them. If not, get one. (I did)
Go to POW-WOW. Take all the classes that interest you. Drag your Den Leaders/Scoutparents with you.
I find that the more people you talk to and network with, you can bounce your questions off. Every Pack is totally different.
Now to the question:
I have never heard of re-earning the beltloops/pins except for certain ones for Webelos.
Except for the BB/Archery Beltloops that the boys earn at each Camp, in our Pack, we do not re-earn them. I would check with the District Advancement Chair to see what they say. Does your Pack already say the boys have to re-earn beltloops?
I tell the boys that when they earn the beltloops, that they should go for the Pins. That garners better understanding of the topic at hand.
As SM Walker states the Cubscout World Conservation Award can only be earned once, and not by Tigers. Tigers also cannot earn the Cubscout Outdoor Activity Award, but it can be re-earned each year. If the boys do, they do get a pin. This is the same as for the Summertime Pack Award.
The trick is to keep the interest of the boys from Tigers to Webelos. The Bears have to earn Leave NO Trace. As Wolves last year, they already did and got the patch. So, why would I want to hand out another $5 patch…..
You have to make it fun and DIFFERENT. I am going to have the whole Pack earn the Hornaday Award.. Read here for more info: http://scouteradam.wordpress.c…..2010-2011/
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Cubmaster Pack 221 Portland, OR WE1-492-09 Beaver Patrol, Staff WE1-492011, Blog:http://scouteradam.wordpress.com/
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9:29 pm August 4, 2010
| SM Shawn
| | Green Bay, WI | |
| Admin
| posts 483 |  
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Not to make corrections, but that is my nature…
Tigers can earn the Outdoor Activity Award, Complete one requirement in Achievement 5, "Let's Go Outdoors" (Tiger Cub Handbook) and complete three of the outdoor activities.
The Bears don't have to earn the LNT, that is also optional…all ranks can earn that one. It's really just following the guidelines spelled out by LNT.
Onto the belt loops…from what others have stated, there is no expiration on belt loops, and nobody, including units, districts or councils can make changes to that policy…only national can
Where does is say there is no expiration? no where…if there was an "expiration period", national would have put it in the literature.
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Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…
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9:44 pm August 4, 2010
| Arlen
| | Colorado | |
| PTC Tiger | posts 15 | 
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Thank you all for your replies. Like I mentioned, I figured it was a case of someone adding to the requirements. I thought about trying the "show me something with the logo on it that says that" route, but I thought I'd save the vocal skeptic role for my second roundtable. 
Our pack is like most described here, where the boys are free to earn the belt loop again, and will be recognized for it, but the belt loop is only awarded the first time.
When she said all the belt loops had to be removed each year, I had visions of parents stripping the awards off the belts while Johnny was in tears in the corner. THAT would go over well. Like smwalker_oh said, I can't think of an scenario where the scout would remove an award without replacing it with something else.
I look forward to learning and sharing with you fine folks, thanks again!
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10:28 pm August 4, 2010
| ScouterAdam
| | Portland, OR | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 86 |  
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@Shawn: Thanks for the update….I actually should read my own post and the links before posting. I re-read it and realized that.
@Arlen: I think it's really going to far for parents stripping the beltloops from the belt. That would make me want to leave Cubscouts.
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Cubmaster Pack 221 Portland, OR WE1-492-09 Beaver Patrol, Staff WE1-492011, Blog:http://scouteradam.wordpress.com/
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9:58 am August 5, 2010
| Scouter Warren
| | NC | |
| PTC Wolf | posts 34 | 
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We typically just earn them the once. Some of the belt loops can be earned over and over continuously pretty easily so it doesn't really make sense to hand out the award each time. I think the idea behind the awards are to give the scouts a taste of each activity and if they like it they can run with it and later get the pin.
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Warren — Assistant Cubmaster
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12:18 pm August 5, 2010
| Kris
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| Admin
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I think this is another case of they don't say loops do or don't expire so it's up to your own interpretation. That's not adding requirements or ignoring them so there's no harm in saying each rank can re-earn them or not. I would say the consensus is that if the parents are willing to pay for them (which it looks like is the policy most of us follow) why NOT let them earn them. I don't believe they should be told they can't wear the ones from the previous year tho. Wear 'em all! Show off your accomplishments!!!
Belt loops are THE easiest/best form of instant recognition going. They learn something while earning something that they CAN wear to every meeting and that is somewhat personal rather than just another generic patch that ends up in a shoebox with little to no explanation. So what if Scout earns the swimming belt loop 4/5 times because he went to summer camp! If mom/dad/guardian is willing to pay for them, GO FOR IT! My son had a goal to fill up his belt before he crossed over and he did just that!
I would say, the important thing to take from this discussion is that your unit HAS to have a belt loop policy in place. In my former pack the unit paid for the first 6 loops scout earned, the rest were on mom & dad…but we had that kind of money to play with. My current pack, we haven't established a policy yet, but we're just getting going. It doesn't matter if your pack will pay for it the first time or every time, you have to have that policy in place.
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12:52 pm August 5, 2010
| smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |  
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Our pack's policy has always been that the pack covers rank items (rank badges, totems/beads, activity badges and arrow points). All else is paid for by the family. The first time a Scout earns a beltloop or pin, we automatically get him one and the Scout's ISA is charged. After the first time, we don't pick up that beltloop or pin again if a Scout re-earns them unless the family specifically requests us to do so. It has worked out pretty well in our pack.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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2:59 pm August 5, 2010
| SM Shawn
| | Green Bay, WI | |
| Admin
| posts 483 |  
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ditto for Pack 4363…what Scott said
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Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…
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