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belt loops question

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11:05 pm
October 18, 2009


bsafox

Bellevue, NE

PTC Tiger

posts 17

 What is our stance on belt loops/pins that overlap with rank requirements?  Are the youth doing the same activity and getting credit twice?  What is our purpose in this?

12:07 am
October 19, 2009


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

Double-dipping=BSA no-no….but I will bet that there are a lot of units out there that do it.

I can speak from experience that my WB II's DL said "we don't need to go camping as a den, we will cover all of that with the troop campout….we haven't followed what the BSA says to do to fulfill the requirements for the Arrow of Light. We didn't camp with my last 2 sons, they will do enough of that with the troop"….

In other words, he double-dipped a lot, and that is one of the reasons that he is no longer the DL…when I questioned him about double-dipping, he said that I could do what I wanted to do with my son, but he wouldn't expose the rest of the den to camping…as he put it, "camping is for Boy Scouts, not Cub Scouts…"

I could go into it more, but let's just say, that his son is going to one troop, and the other 6 are coming to my troop…

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9:30 am
October 19, 2009


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

I have to disagree when it comes to beltloops.  When you're being reasonable about things, it is not bad to plan activities that can fulfill multiple requirements at the same time.

For the Webelos, there are some requirements that specifically say if you have done this for one advancement, it cannot count for this other one so you have to do it a second time.  That's the only place that double-dipping is specifically mentioned that I'm aware of from Tigers up through Webelos.  In Boy Scouts I am sure that doing something once and counting it towards multiple requirements is not allowed but that's an entirely different program with different aims and methods. 

If you're a Wolf den and you are working on section 1j of the book (teaching the three types of basketball passes – bounce, chest & overhand), would it be inappropriate to also teach them the rules of the game and then play a game of basketball (completing the basketball beltloop)?  Not at all!  And in doing that, you have also completed the requirement of Wolf elective 20m, to show how to shoot, pass & dribble a basketball and take part in a game.  Should the boys get credit for all three of these things during this activity or should you make them do it all a second time?

Our role as leader is to get these boys to experience these things (some things are new, some aren't).  In doing so it builds values and character and teaches them to try things they may have an interest in doing.  Especially at the Cub level, it is very much about encouraging them to explore the world around them, learn about all the opportunities available to them.  One of these methods is through recognition and advancement used to keep them motivated and moving forward.

The key here is to plan it out and that way you can make the boys aware at the time of that they are fulfilling multiple requirements.  Using the example I gave above, you can then tell your boys at the beginning of the meeting, "Today we're going to be learning basketball.  We're going to learn about the rules, practice the skills needed and even play a game!  When we're done you'll have completed part of your Wolf rank work, an elective and earned a beltloop!"  How cool is that meeting?  The boys will meet the intent of all of those three requirements and will walk away with something to show for it.  To a 7 or 8 year old, what could be better?  Getting to play ball with his buddies and getting a new shiny for his uniform!

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

8:02 am
October 21, 2009


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

Sorry to double-post on this, but here's an example where it might be considered "double-dipping" but I think it is perfectly acceptable to give credit.

Last night I had a den meeting with my Webelos I boys.  We were invited by the troop to practice fire building (Klondike Derby prep) at the Scoutmaster's farm (build small fires on his driveway).  So we attended that and the boy scouts helped the Webelos learn how to build fires.

This meets two different requirements:

Outdoorsman #7 – Discuss with your Webelos Den Leader the rules of outdoor fire safety.  Using these rules, show how to build a safe fire and put it out.

Arrow of Light #4b – With your Webelos Den, visit at least one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity.

Getting credit for two things for one event the boys attended and participated in could be considered double-dipping, but in this situation (which happens quite a bit at the Cub Scout level if people are planning effectively) it is perfectly legitimate.

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

8:41 pm
October 21, 2009


sebastian

Guest

bsafox said:

 What is our stance on belt loops/pins that overlap with rank requirements?  Are the youth doing the same activity and getting credit twice?  What is our purpose in this?


I would go so far as to say that the Sports and Academics program is designed to dovetail with certain rank requirements.

There are a few instances that might be double dipping, but I think they are pretty well specified.  For example, the Webelos book indicates that certain activities used to complete the Outdoorsman requirement are not also valid fulfillment of Arrow of Light.

Some requirements specify completion of a beltloop (example the swimming beltloop can be a way to meet a requirement in Aquanaut and Sportsman requires completing four different sports beltloops).

Where there is neither requirement nor prohibition, I think you can use your best judgement.  Would I use the same poster for meeting requirements of Art, Communications, and Leave No Trace.  Probably not.  Is it double dipping?  Hmm, maybe not.


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