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Time to pay the piper

UserPost

11:23 pm
January 21, 2010


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

OK, quick and to the point question…looking for some different points of view

Our annual dues are $80, they cover recharter, Boy's Life, BG dinner, PWD, materials, awards and some miscellaneous items.

We have 4 families who haven't paid, no commonality in the families, other than they haven't paid. They have been contacted many times, emails, calls and conversations at den meetings….all with the same answer…"I will pay next week" and next week never comes. They disappear…no longer come to meetings, or reply to emails, but there is always one other parent in the pack that says, "I saw soinso, they are really busy"…OK, I get that

At what point to you get "stiff" with them….the other 39 families paid their dues to get the same program, why do these families get a free pass? In my eyes, they don't, and that is where this topic comes in…I am a bit too cut and dried. My email would look like this…

Dear Soinso,

We haven't heard from you about paying your past dues. Your total is $XX.XX. Please make payment by next Friday, so we can close the books on the financial year. If payment is not made, your son will be dropped from the pack roster, as the pack isn't in a financial position to make that payment for you. Thanks

Bob Kadiddlehopper

Unit Leader

Yea, I know, a bit heavy-handed…but what else do you do? Our pack has a broad financial spectrum, and we haven't had any issues with the other 39…

How can I/we/the pack, be firm, but fair?

Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…

3:46 am
January 22, 2010


Nick the UK GSL

Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire, UK

PTC Boy Scout

posts 146

Post edited 10:24 am – January 22, 2010 by Nick the UK GSL


I think you have the right idea. If the parents aren't prepared to pay then the boy cannot attend.

This situation would not occur if they were going to a sports club or an activity run on a commercial basis (say music lessons) as they would be required to pay before the boy could take part in the activity. So why should your Pack be out of pocket?

The parents of the kids in my Group have to pay £25 (~$40) per year which then goes straight to the Scout Association. We do get some who take a little nagging to pay (our Group's Treasurer is very good at this!), but they all do. Some parents find it a struggle to pay, especially those who have 3 members in the Group, but they pay up. When I've chatted to some parents about this, they agree that we are significantly cheaper than the costs incurred if, for example,  their child plays for the local football team.

My Group has always tried to be accomodating if the parents have financial difficulties and then we work something out between us, but this is done on a spcific basis.

If you can't talk to the parents face to face, then I think that rather than sending an email, sending a letter through the post would be the way to request the money. This would be seen as more 'formal'.

Hope that helps.

Nick Wood –

Group Scout Leader
1st Stoke-on-Trent & Newcastle, St. Andrews Porthill, UK

10:11 am
January 22, 2010


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

Since I'm in that recharter time…

I told the pack on November 20th that the recharter fee is $45 and we would begin collecting in January.
I told the Pack on Dec 12th that the recharter fee is $45 and we will be collecting in January.
I sent invoices home on December 16th.
Last night I sat with every parent at our dens meetings and Told them exactly how much they owe by February 21. Coincidentally, I was also pumping them to buy tickets to our blue and gold. They were all told that if they come to me on February 22, They will be handed a new application.

I have always been this cut and dried. If you miss the recharter date you are dropped and will have to fill out a new application. The fact that some people do not give and stick with hard deadlines is their own issue. Once you give a hard deadline, stick to it, and they see it happen. They can do nothing but honor the deadline you set.

12:23 pm
January 22, 2010


BigMc

Houston

PTC Tenderfoot

posts 243

Shawn,

Nick and Garry have some good points.  I think I would even point out in the email that if this were a sports activity that they would not be allowed to participate. I do like Garry's idea of dropping them at recharter, but I think you have already passed your recharter time.  That said, you noted that they no longer come to meeting or reply to emails.  If so, have they effectively told you "We will not be participating in Scouts anymore."?  This is never an easy issue since it varies by family from too embarassed to admit financial issues to too lazy to write a check.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Kevin Mc.
ScoutMaster – Troop 1865;
Copperhead District;
Sam Houston Area Council;
Houston, TX;
Twitter TaxgeekKM

1:05 pm
January 22, 2010


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

Thanks for the comments….

I know what needs to be done, I just think that I am a bit heavy-handed when it comes to collecting, but a bill is a bill…it needs to be paid, and "Can I pay you later?" and then not paying, well, is not very scout like.

I like the sports analogy, I will pass that one on to the CC [the wife, she thinks that I am mean] Wink

Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…

4:38 pm
January 22, 2010


Nick the UK GSL

Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire, UK

PTC Boy Scout

posts 146

SM Shawn said:

I know what needs to be done, I just think that I am a bit heavy-handed when it comes to collecting, but a bill is a bill…it needs to be paid, and "Can I pay you later?" and then not paying, well, is not very scout like.


I know what you mean. I dislike the having to ask, then ask and ask again. But if your Pack is $320 out of pocket, then that has an impact on the rest of the boys in the Pack, then those parents need to pay.

That's $320 you don't have to spend on activities and equipment etc.

It is always an awkward situation for you and the other Pack officials, but the Pack cannot suffer because some parents can't / won't / forget to pay (I'm trying not to be too judgemental here!).

Nick Wood –

Group Scout Leader
1st Stoke-on-Trent & Newcastle, St. Andrews Porthill, UK

5:43 pm
January 22, 2010


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

I think that everyone should use recharter as a come to your deity of choice time. If you allow multiple payments, make sure everyone is even at recharter. During the year if they miss a payment by 90days cut them off. Cable waits 60 days. Utilities will usually wait 90 but no more than 120 for you to catch up.

Ok now for those that speak html , for others that's turning the hard ass off. We as a pack carry no reserve. We have families with 3 boys on the program, and we have families with two boys in the program. Those families are given the option of dropping to one copy of boy's life and we have in the past waived our $18 pack dues (but you better sell popcorn).

Because this is a skin game, the pack's skin doesn't go in until your skin goes in. You have to pay by the deadline or fill out a new app.

8:22 pm
January 22, 2010


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

The CC read this thread, she has her stuff ready to go, and if need be, drop kids from the roster. No need for anyone to think that they are being too harsh, I don't see it that way, as I am probably one of the more "hardline" guys here.

I agree with the other posts….you pay to play, in whatever you do. And we have to keep that in mind and Gary hit it on the head, the cable company only waits 60 days.

Personally, I don't think the fees that we charge and what the boys get, is out of line. As stated, 39 other people took advantage of our offer to offset fees with our fundraiser. These folks chose not to, and we aren't in a liquid position to pay for program for 4 families that, well, don't want to help the pack go…

Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…

10:34 am
January 25, 2010


MISS Emily

Admin

posts 137

We basically had only 5 families who hadn't paid on time, and they seemed to comprise two different problems.

The first 3 of them weren't consistently attending pack or den functions.  We had the den leader contact them twice to clarify if they planned on continuing in scouts, and reminded them of the amount due.  Then the CC contacted them and said that she was finishing the recharter on such and such a date, and if we didn't have money in hand, they would be dropped.  I think 2 were dropped, and they weren't around, and were giving us the passive signal that they were done. One wanted to continue, apologized about the delay and resolved the issue.

The second group of 2 families who hadn't paid, were attending everything, and weren't paying due to financial hardship.  They were initially embaressed, but after meeting with them, and discussing options, arrangements were made.  One family just wanted to pay in installments, and one just needed to wait another month.  The pack had sufficient funds to cover the dues and BL fees for the month.  And both of those families paid.  However, these were families who were invested in the program and needed extra support and encouragement.

MISS Emily, Committee Chair and DL Pack 103, Atlanta, GA **A proud Mother in Scouting Service along with MISS Sonia, MISS Liberty, and MISS Shannon**

8:42 pm
January 26, 2010


mbeyke

Carterville, IL.

PTC Bear

posts 53

Our Pack has a "hard" date of 15 days before Recharter deadline.  If payment is not made, or arraingements for late payments, then the scout is not rechartered.  Our dues are only $27 so it is really not that much, but if they don't pay, they don't get rechartered, and have to stop coming to activities.

God Bless, nMark L. Beyken"Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words!" St. Francis of Assisi

10:21 pm
February 24, 2010


johneegeek

Kenosha, WI

PTC Tiger

posts 15

What we do in our Pack when people have not paid their dues is 'hold' the awards.  

After an exciting awards ceremony we'll get a parent come and say: "How come my son did not get his award?"   Which I usually respond with: "Oh, he probably has an outstanding balance, check with the treasurer."  ;)

This works pretty well for us.

John Kiernan, Cubmaster – Pack 567 – Kenosha, WI
www.nashpack567.org

11:09 am
April 16, 2010


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

We try to do whatever we can to help out families who have financial needs. This is one of the main reasons why we do individual scout accounts with 100% of popcorn commission going to the account. For the families that have financial issues, this is helpful because the scout can earn his way without coming out of the family's pocket. We do payment plans, other fundraisers, etc. What we found is that there's always that one family that wants the free part without the work and those are the ones that usually get dropped unfortunately. Our standing rule is that we put in charges for things on dates that are communicated well in advance, and if a boy's ISA balance drops to a negative balance of greater than $10 the family is contacted about the negative balance and if they don't make an arrangement to pay or pay at the next meeting, he cannot attend any functions until they're paid up.

Dealing with this stuff (money) is IMHO the crappiest part of being a leader.

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

11:44 pm
October 5, 2010


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

Post edited 3:48 am – October 6, 2010 by SM Shawn


I knew that I had a thread out there, from a long time ago, and here it is. I posted a tweet tonight about how long do you wait? Well, um, m-yeah…

So, 3 of the 4 families that didn't pay, dropped. "Sorry, but we aren't participating, thanks" and that was the extent of the email…

The one that didn't drop was the reason for the tweet earlier tonight…

We have a family, who last year, sold the popcorn, and their money envelope got "thrown out"…to the tune of $580. They said that it was on their kitchen table, and some papers got moved or tossed out, and their money was in the envelope. The family called and told the CC what happened, to which she replied, "well, it really was your fault, not ours, but let's work it out."

The family had the people who wrote checks, write another check, and they made arrangements for paying the rest. Being they are strapped a lot, the committee decided on $10 a month would suffice for the rest of the year, and when the next fundraiser was, they would be required to sell things, but their son would get no money in his account until their bill was paid in full.

So $10 came last December, $10 more in January…nothing in February, March. Then they stopped showing up for pack meetings all together. This situation was brought up at every committee meeting since last November…each month, the ACM objecting to being "heavy-handed" and the CC, my wife, seemingly coming off as the b—-h [female dog in-heat].

Over the last 7 months, all we have gotten is "my bank took out too much for our XXX payment, I don't have it…" or "our checkbook is goofed up, and we don't have it" or "I already paid you, didn't I?"…you have all heard the stories.

OK, so let's fast forward a tad. Over the summer, the treasurer had some issues with her family life, and needed to quit as the treasurer. We got a new treasurer and after looking at the Scout Accounts, we found that this family used almost $100 of their ISA monies…the old treasurer wasn't informed about the lost money, and that their account was "frozen" until all monies were collected.

NOTE: For those following along, and wondering about the amounts, our pack pays 30% of their popcorn sale…so little Jonny sold $580, his ISA amount would be $174, then we would subtract $80 for his annual dues, leaving $94 for him to use towards scouting activities. Since the family hadn't paid in full, they didn't have a "dog in the hunt"…once they would have paid it all, their account would be unfrozen and they would have access to the funds.

OK, back to the story. After setting up 3 more payment plans, that the family agreed to, and never fulfilled, I get wind of something else…little Jonny is playing Pop-Warner football. I don't know about your area, but here, scratch a check for $250 as an application fee, and that doesn't include everything else. I pay a visit to the CM and tell him and his wife about it…his wife, the treasurer, flips a wig, calls the CC [my wife], and we have an impromptu meeting right there. We total everything up, to the tune of $380…$280 for what they haven't paid, plus $100 for the funds they "used" that they weren't entitled to.

To settle the debt, we decide on $200 even…let's recoup something, we decide…nevermind all of our noses are out of joint about Pop Warner. Oh, did I mention that the mom of this family is the advancement chair? Um, m-yeah…

The CC contacts the mom…"you need to settle this or Jonny and you are done, sorry."

"We will pay $25 per week for the next 8 weeks, then the $90 for this year's dues the week after…is that OK?" said the mom

"Yes, see you Friday…" says the CC [my wife]

First week…."bank goofed up, I will pay both next week if things are OK"

Second week…no calls, no emails…treasurer calls on the following Monday…"things happened, blah, blah, blah…I will have $75 on this Friday."

On the Wednesday after they have missed 2 payments, I go through the drive thru at McD's, and who is there? The mom…at the window, serving my food. "Hey there!" I said with a smile…she looks at me and says "I need to talk to you about selling popcorn. My husband wants to sell it now."

"Talk to my wife," I said…"she is in charge of the pack, not me."

"Oh, OK…I will do that…" and I drove off.

The mom stops at my house, promises to pay $75 this past Friday, and wants to get some popcorn for her son to sell…apologizes up and down, see you Friday…that type of thing. She also wants to know who she can talk to at the CO to discuss payments, and smooth things over, as we informed the CO what was happening. The CO told my wife, "she pays, or she's gone…" and that was the extent of it. Don't get me wrong, our CO is the best thing that could have happened to this pack, and we are grateful that our COR is stepping in to offer assistance.

So………………………………….Friday comes and goes….no calls, no emails, she hasn't mailed anything, nor called the Popcorn Kernel to get some order forms or Show & Deliver stock. Fast forward to Monday…the treasurer says the she will call her an inform the family that on Wednesday, they need to have the $75 or they are officially done.

The CC calls today, tells mom "$100 on Friday or you are done. As for popcorn, you will only be allowed to do Take Order, no Show and Deliver. Anything you sell, you had better collect for, as anything that you haven't collected for will not be ordered. If you don't do what I have outlined, you will be removed from the Charter Friday afternoon, and this is per the CO. If by choice, you don't want to follow through, please drop off all awards to the Cubmaster's house or my house."

"OK, but why is it $100? And why can't we have any popcorn to sell immediately?"

"Um, you missed 3 weeks of payments, plus your payment of $25 for this Friday. As for the popcorn, you haven't shown yourself to be trustworthy of carrying an inventory…"

"OK, see you on Friday…"

So, now that you have read my short novel, I am hoping that everyone here can take something from this….good, bad or otherwise.

I will post the final result, but from the way that I can read the CC, there will be final resolution on Friday.

Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…

2:36 am
October 6, 2010


Nick the UK GSL

Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire, UK

PTC Boy Scout

posts 146

To be honest I think it's probably time to wave goodbye to this family. They are having an impact both on the Packs finances (potentially to the detriment of the other Cubs) and the time of the CC, Treasurer etc. Never mind the fact the family can find the dosh for football.

It would be a shame to lose a Cub like this (and be potentially unfair on the Cub), but what other service / organisation would let someone carry on doing the activities or receiving the service without coughing up?

A bit harsh I know but the Pack needs be able to write this one off as a bad loss.

YIS

Nick Wood –

Group Scout Leader
1st Stoke-on-Trent & Newcastle, St. Andrews Porthill, UK

4:40 pm
October 21, 2010


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

So what's the update Shawn?

I have had families like that in my pack over the years. We have generally been able to work out a deal. However, we (the pack) has also had to write off a lot of debts over the last couple years due to negative scout account balances of kids who quit.

The worst experience I had was one family where to be perfectly honest the Den Leader molly-coddled them. Basically decided to put me up as a bad guy and tried to do the "Oh, you can still come no matter what mean old Scott says." We heard all the same old song and dance routines, etc. from the family about paying their $60 in dues for the year. But in the end we never got the money and we had to basically tell the family they were out.

This is one area where I actually like what the Girl Scouts are doing (at least in our council) for their big fundraisers. The troop finances are handled by the troops, but for Cookie Sales all the money gets deposited into a council bank account directly less the troop's commission. If a family is a non-payer ("the envelope got stolen from my purse" or "we accidentally threw away the envelope with all the money"), the troop immediately hands that over to council and council handles the finances from there for getting that cookie money. The commission gets paid to the troop by council if the family ever pays up their end of the obligation. In the meanwhile, the troop doesn't have to stress about the details and the scout and their family just have to pay out of pocket for whatever it is they're participating in.

With how we handle commissions in popcorn for our pack, the one place where we wouldn't have the problem with the "uses money in their ISA that was frozen" is that for us, that Scout who sold $580 would have that $174 in commission, but until that money is in our hands, he has $0 commission. If they only turned in $575 instead of the full $580, we subtract the last $5 from his commission. Doesn't make good sense to credit someone for money that was never turned in.

The one last thing that isn't really related but to me shows the difference in attitude in my area between the BSA and GS-USA in fundraising money (GS-USA council wants to make sure that the troops get their cut and they deal with the issues, the BSA council wants their cut and doesn't want to deal with your problems) is that we tell all of our scouts when collecting money for popcorn to get all checks made out to council. Then we deposit the checks into our unit account. The reason being is that if the check were to bounce (and let's face it, some always will), the pack doesn't have to mess with it. Our advancement coordinator works right by the scout service center so he gets the lucky job to turn these in, the last time in there the lady asked if our pack had their own bank account when he went to turn in a few hundred dollars more of checks. :)

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

10:54 pm
October 22, 2010


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

Ok, so I left it hangin' for a bit longer than I should have.

To summarize, the advancement chair of our pack stiffed the pack, via popcorn…from last year. We have been working to collect for the last 12 months. As of the last posting she hadn't paid, and we were contemplating giving her the boot…

OK, back to now…She paid that weekend, and took the Take Order form for popcorn and the scout ended up selling $468 worth…just about enough to cover his dues for the year, and cover the outstanding debt.

But…………………………………why is there always a but?

Mom said that she wanted to pay $50 with a check, and the other $50 with his scout account…she still hasn't paid the $50, but she won't be allowed to use her scout account until that is paid.

And…………………………………..another "but"……….

As I stated, she is the awards chair….

Last night, when it came time to hand out awards, no awards chair…the ACM stalled and stalled, and then finally, she showed….with $180 worth of awards that were from the previous month…so, m-yeah…late, and wrong awards…with another excuse "I have an ailing family member…"

That's where we stand, but guess who's taking over advancement awards?

Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…

10:01 pm
October 24, 2010


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

I'm guessing you?

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

12:09 pm
October 25, 2010


Jeff

Sunny Florida

PTC Bear

posts 62

##sarcasm  money problems usually bring out the best in people /sarcasm….

we had a similar situation – but fortunately we only lost $135. it did, however give us a new policy of "you pay when you pick up any popcorn". at the time our pack was living much more paycheck-to-paycheck and that was a decent hit.


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