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Trying to clarify time requirement for Arrow of Light.

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1:18 pm
October 8, 2009


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

The first requirement for the Webelos Arrow Of Light  Patch  is:

1. Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

My question is in a standard traditional grade based unit is the requirement written to be the least restrictive or most restrictive? As LDS units work strictly off of age their requirement is clearly six months after becoming 10.
If the boys birthday is after September 1st he could turn 10 and meet the  requirement as early as February of his 4th grade year. Based on a fall recruiting schedule, he would be  a Webelos 1  and eligible for crossover.  In this case he  has met the less restrictive requirement of age, but not the more restrictive requirement of completing 4th grade.
It doesn't get get any clearer if I look at the age requirements for joining Boy Scouts.
My initial thoughts are this is a discussion for the boy, the parents and the scoutmaster to  ensure the  boy  is readily accepted into the  troop of his choice.
In my case, the boy is finished with all the Activity Badges he wants to do and anxious to move on. He  is two months away from  the more restrictive  and a month past his least restrictive interpretation.

9:40 pm
October 8, 2009


SM Shawn

Green Bay, WI

Admin

posts 483

If he is LDS, I have no answers, as I don't know the program…

As for the AOL, he can't earn it before 6 months of being out of the 4th grade…so in most cases, that is around December. At that time, having completed all requirements, he earns his AOL, and thus, can bridge to a troop…unless…

He gets done with the 4th grade on June 4th [just an example] and turns 11 , say, September 21st, he can immediately bridge without having to earn his AOL…but if he bridges, he is no longer allowed to go back and work on that AOL [goes without saying]…

If in February [when most bridging ceremonies take place], that scout hasn't earned his AOL, or, isn't 11, he can't cross to the troop…he will only be able to do this with any one of these three scenarios…

1.) He earns his AOL
2.) He turns 11
3.) Finishes the 5th grade [my son will be done with the 5th grade before he turns 11]

The only way that a 4th grade boy can get into a troop is if he is 11, there is no other way, completed requirements or the like…

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3:09 pm
October 14, 2009


Scouter Doug

Kenilworth, NJ

PTC Webelos

posts 91

Is it possible to join Scouts as a fifth grader and still complete AOL by February?

Doug Metz – Scoutmaster – Troop 83 – Kenilworth, NJ http://scoutersjourney.wordpress.com – twitter: dwmetz

3:55 pm
October 14, 2009


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

Depends on the registration date and the date in February. Using timeanddate.com 6 months earlier than  February 28, 2010  is August 28, 2009. (182.5 days or 26 weeks is August 30th).   Using the  technical   date calculation, It is possible that school started and a boy joined  on or before August 28.

Your mileage may vary on the rest of this.  My experiences with my council on cub scouts is  if the scout  registered in August all of August counts, etc.  So  using this looser method  August  to February  is six months.  I have heard from  cub-scout-talk that national considers a paid registration to be an active cub scout.  

We have a boy in our pack this year that is working on this very thing.

12:15 pm
October 15, 2009


smwalker_oh

Middletown, Ohio

PTC Star Scout

posts 592

I have several boys who joined this year (September) as Webelos II's and from my counting there's no way they can earn AOL by the time they cross in February to Boy Scouts.

My issue is that in AOL it doesn't state what "active" means.  If you look at the Webelos badge requirements for item #2 which is the same type of requirement (be an active member of your den) but only for three months, it clarifies itself by stating, "Active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, and working on den projects."  I believe that this definition of active carries forward from the Webelos badge to the Arrow of Light.  Why wouldn't it?

Is it generally assumed that the three months a boy must be an active Webelos also counts towards the six month requirement for Arrow of Light, or are they separate?  If they can't be done simultaneously, then that means a boy has to be a Webelos for no less than 9 months total (of which six must be after his 10th birthday) before he can earn the Arrow of Light.

My experience with councils is that they care very little to not at all about things like registration tenures for Cub Scouts.  On more than one ocassion from more than one professional I've heard, "It doesn't matter for Cub Scouts, it isn't like it counts for Eagle or anything like that."

PT – Pack 19 Middletown
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MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
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GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator

3:36 pm
October 15, 2009


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

 Meritbadge.org has a whole page dedicated to the confusion of the definition of Active in the BSA (http://meritbadge.org/wiki/ind…..php/Active) Meritbadge.org actually comments that the Definition for Active under the Webelos badge is more restrictive than  the Boy Scout definition.

Scibd.com has a document that  is reportedly  item #57-492 from the BSA. "Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scout of America".  On image 7  under Article VII. Youth Members, General Classifications, Section 1, Active, Clause 1; there is yet another definition of the word Active.

So the  scouts do not have a consistent definition for active. Do you hold the scout  to the  more resctrictive  one for the Webelos badge or  any of the other less restrictive definitions.  When determining "Active", my answer is  you're not wrong any where from "a registered scout is an active scout" and "having good attendance, paying your den dues, working on den projects."  There is precedent for both. I have the feeling that if the scout was registered in  September and the crossover is in late February, the council won't give you any static. As you pointed out the professional scouters often say "it's not like its Eagle required."

I do not think the time requirement for Webelos and Arrow of light  are consecutive months.  From reading the other requirements, specifically the troop outdoor activity, it states the same  activity cannot be used for Outdoorsman and Arrow of Light.  If consecutive  I believe they would state it as such. Consecutive  time in rank  would also change the Arrow of Light requirements for units that base rank strictly on age such as the LDS or possibly a home school only  unit.  

In these LDS or age based units the boys  move up in rank throughout the year as their birthday occurs.  So  when a boy turns 10 he is a webelos. Meeting the time requirements for the Webelos Badge  and the Arrow of light concurrently concurrently would allow the scout to earn his arrow of light at 10 years and 6 months, as stated in the Arrow of Light requirement.  Having to meet the time in den  requirements consecutively, would mean  the earliest the  age based scouting unit could award the  Arrow of light is when the boy is 10 years and 9 months.

On the School based side consecutive time in den requirements  would mean most  boys joining in the 5th grade would never earn the AOL  or earn it in May.

So  to my logic the Webelos and Arrow of Light  time in den requirement is  or can be running concurrently provided the  scout is in the fifth grade or 10 years old  (*and registered in an age based unit).  Still for many this puts the earliest to  receive the AOL and join in September of the fifth grade as March 1

* This  proviso for being registered in an age based unit  is based on my original question and Shawn's answer that no 4th grade  cub scout could earn the Arrow of Light.

I hope you've been able to follow my logic and understand how I came to my answers.


1:07 pm
October 21, 2009


Scouter_Garry

SATX

PTC Boy Scout

posts 106

Scouter_Garry said:

The first requirement for the Webelos Arrow Of Light  Patch  is:

1. Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

My question is in a standard traditional grade based unit is the requirement written to be the least restrictive or most restrictive? As LDS units work strictly off of age their requirement is clearly six months after becoming 10.
If the boys birthday is after September 1st he could turn 10 and meet the  requirement as early as February of his 4th grade year. Based on a fall recruiting schedule, he would be  a Webelos 1  and eligible for crossover.  In this case he  has met the less restrictive requirement of age, but not the more restrictive requirement of completing 4th grade.

I finally  received  an answer I am  comfortable with giving to others in this situation. There are several components to it.

1.Encourage the scout to  enjoy the Webelos Program. Their is no award for being the youngest Eagle Scout  or the First Boy to Cross over. If the scout is burnt out on cub scouts, it is time for them to move on  to boy scouts.

2. Make sure it is the boys decision to move on. 

3. National  rolls  the scouts to the next grade as of June 1.  This is National Council's standard for completing the 4th grade. National's defacto policy on being an active scout is "a registered scout is an active scout."

4. Scouts born between September 1st ( cut off for most schools) and December 1st  Are encouraged, not required to wait until  June 1st  complete the requirement and then cross over. This has them  completing the fourth grade and Being active in their den for 6 months since turning 10.

5. Scouts Born after December 1st can Earn their Arrow of Light 6 months after their 10th birthday.

Negative things about this answer.  No where does it say a troop has to accept a boy before they turn 11.  Scouts crossing over in June  generally won't be allowed to attend summer camp that Year.

Now to my real world application of this answer. My son became eligible for his Arrow of Light  on October 8th. ( I.E. he has been active in the den for 6months after turning 10.) He has all but 4 activity badges. He has no interest in completing them. He has told us that he  is bored with cub scouts and he is just waiting until he can cross over. 

Thanks for your answers and conversation on this subject.

1:13 pm
October 21, 2009


BigMc

Houston

PTC Tenderfoot

posts 243

Hey Garry, Thanks for posting the resolution.  This is especially important to me since my Bear turned 9 on September 18.  Given how much fun his brother has in Boy Scouts, I can see him trying to move on up Spring 2011.  The Troop would probably accept him, but that doesn't mean I think he should move up at that point.

Kevin Mc.
ScoutMaster – Troop 1865;
Copperhead District;
Sam Houston Area Council;
Houston, TX;
Twitter TaxgeekKM


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