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7:13 pm
November 27, 2010
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ScouterAdam
| | Portland, OR | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 86 |  
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So, I started a kerfuffle in the Linkedin forums and it spilled into Twitter. About "Are Square Knot Awards available to assistants as well as Leaders?" I blame the turkey for it all…;) Scoutmaster Shawn chimed in as well as a few others on Twitter, but I still have questions to clarify.
Here is the link to Linkedin:
http://www.linkedin.com/groupA…..=view_disc
It is agreed upon that on the Charter, leaders should be registered as Den Leaders to get around the Assistant part, except for the Assistant Cubmaster. Reason being the Cubmaster Knot takes care of that issue in that the Assistant can work towards the award as well. If the Charter states they are the assistant Den Leader, then the Cub Scouter Knot is used.
It is my thought, since I am the Cubmaster and can sign off on all papwork except my own, that Knots are earned as dictated. If the Den Leader/Committee Member knows about the Knots, they can work for them. I highly encourage all registered adults within the Pack to go for these knots. If the registered adult is not aware of the knots, I make them aware and I do track progress for them. Since the Cubmaster is there to support Den Leaders, I should look for ways to recoginize their efforts.
In my unit, I have one Den Leader who is on track to earn the Webelos Den Leader Knot. He already has earned the Den Leader Knot. He showed up to a Roundtable last year and got the Knot. I submitted the paperwork unbeknownst to him. He was pleased. I have earned the Tiger Den Leader Knot and am on track to earn the Cubmaster Knot this spring. I earned the TDLK as a Committee Memeber on the charter, this is a slip-up of the then Committee Chair. I only point this out since people say the the correct designation needs to be correct. Overall, both he and I met all the requirements for those already awarded.
I have two Den Leaders who are top notch and really do great things with the Dens this past year. (2009-2010). However, the sticky point is: No Roundtable or Pow-wow participation and one is an Ast Den Leader. Hence, I cannot sign-off on the paperwork. Now, I can sign off if they go to four roundtables by the end of the year.
I think that is leagle since the paperwork asks for dates of participation. Meaning, it can take a Wolf Den Leader through the end of the Bear Den Year to get all requirements. The same for Webelos Den Leader. The Tiger Den Leader is only one year.
Does this seem ok up to this point? Please correct.
Next part:
Who vets the info in the Council/District before awarding the Knot?
In the Linkedin thread, it's the District Training Chair. Also, apparently there is a Council Awards Committee that this person's Council that is the final authority.
It was my understanding that it's the District Advancement Chair and District Exec. The DE vets the info and the DAC acts on the award and presents it. (I checked with our former District Training Chair and that's the answer that I got.)
To me, I suspect that every Council/District acts differently but within the guidelines put forth by the BSA.
How do you do it in your District/Council?
How do you track/award Knots in your Unit.
Also, is there anything in Advanceent Guide from the BSA about this? I looked and cannot find anything related.
YIS
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Cubmaster Pack 221 Portland, OR WE1-492-09 Beaver Patrol, Staff WE1-492011, Blog:http://scouteradam.wordpress.com/
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11:00 am
November 29, 2010
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JTHoppe
| | Northern Kentucky/Cincinnati | |
| PTC Tiger | posts 16 |
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Speaking strictly from how it has worked for me and the leaders in our Pack…
In our district (as I am not sure how much the council gets involved in most knot awards) I, as the Committee Chair, would submit the completed Progress Record to one of our DEs after I signed off on the requirements (for my own Cub Scouter knot, I had the Cubmaster sign off on my completion).
Usually at the next Roundtable (or before if I ran into the DE at some point) they would give me the award certificate along with the appropriate square knot attached to it. I had one certificate and knot awarded by the DE to the leader at that particular Roundtable since the recipient was present. The others (including the one awarded at RT) I awarded/presented at our next pack meeting in front of the boys, parents and other leaders.
Based on this, it does not appear there was any vetting of the actual accomplishments and tenure at the district or council level. Certainly nothing as far as the district advancement or training chairs go. My guess is the DEs took the leader's and my word (Scout's honor) and had the certificate made and got the knot. Aside from the Tenure and Training sections, there is nothing else a district or council person could check/validate.
As far as tracking, it is up to the leaders themselves to track and record their progress and accomplishments. Whenever we get new leaders in the pack, we make mention of the available awards and hand out a blank copy of the appropriate tracking sheet. From there, the leader can work towards it or not based on their preference. We encourage everyone to work toward the awards however, attending Roundtable or University of Scouting always is the stumbling block.
Depending on the particular district or council vetting/validation, if the pack(CC or CM as listed on the Progress Record) signs off on a leader's form for tenure despite registered status, there may not be an issue if an assistant is awarded a DL knot (outside of Scout's honor and the wording of the requirement).
YIS
Jeff
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4:06 pm
November 29, 2010
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SM Shawn
| | Green Bay, WI | |
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Jeff hit everything exactly as I would have…it's about the honor system. If a Den Leader deserves the knot, then get it for him/her.
In my area, we complete the cards, sign off and send it to the Registrar. I, personally, send them via PDF to her, and she mails the certificate and knot to me, and it gets presented at the next meeting. Our council goes more with the honor system than some others do. That can be good, but that can be bad…and trust me, I have seen the bad.
I haven't researched it enough to find out the official BSA policy on knots. I would guess that whatever http://www.scouting.org says is what you have to take for gospel…and put aside any "ciphering" of how the rules state.
On the same note, the only knot that is available for any kind of assistant is for an Assistant Cubmaster. Any other knots are for the Den Leaders only, per the progress card.
There a whole lot of other knots that a leader can earn, and it's neat to see the award handed out at meetings, albeit Roundtables or Unit meetings.
*SOAPBOX ALERT* This means stop reading if you're not diggin' my opinions
This program is all about the scouts, not knots for the leaders. I have seen many leaders with all kinds of fruit salad on their shirt, but haven't done a damn thing to earn it. And some of those with the rows of knots, IMO, stopped doing the things that they did to earn them. Those are the folks that tarnish the award, and personally, I don't want to earn that award, so as to not be "in the same company"…
Are knots important? Yes, leaders need to be recognized, but your ACTIONS as a leader define who you are, not a piece of cloth attached to your shirt. *END OF RANT*
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Host of the True North Podcast
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8:34 pm
November 29, 2010
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Ken
| | Scranton, PA | |
| PTC Bear | posts 70 |
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Agreed, it's about the Scouts. The only thing a knot means to me is that I (or the person I see wearing the knot) have done everything I can to provide a quality program to the Scouts in my den/pack/troop/etc. for the position designated by the knot. If you're providing a quality program, the knot requirements take care of themselves.
As for who approves the knot, looking at a progress record it says under District Action "Apporved by…" and under the line "For the District". That tells me it's up to the Key Three or their designee to approve the award. So that can be whatever works well in your district.
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10:39 pm
November 29, 2010
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ScouterAdam
| | Portland, OR | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 86 |
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Follow-up on my part:
Just had a great exchange with the person in the Linkedin forums. Great Scouter. Actually taught me a few things and I am getting a PPT about a lot of awards that are not the normal ones. COOL! I felt bad about my rant on Linkedin/Twitter and reached out to him about it. Over the Holiday Weekend the Scout Law ate at me. Friendly, Courteous, Kind….you get the idea.
I got to know him better via email.
What I got out of it was exactly what Shawn and Ken said about the Councils and Scouters that just get knots to get knots and not honor them. I look at people who have those knots the same way I see people in the military with their knots. THEY EARN THEM and can be a resource to help me. Help me help the boys. Yes, it is about the boys (and girls in venturing) in the end. If you do your job and go above and beyond people will recoginize.
I personally use the knots as one of my guides to make sure I do my job. As Cubmaster, I need to have the Pack earn the Summertime Pack Award and Quality Unit Award. If you look at those two awards, the boys win.
Summertime Pack Award is an activity each month. I know of Pack who do 2-3 activities a month. BOYS HAVE FUN!
Quality Unit Award: ARe you meeting goals of getting trained, getting new scouts, having Unit Commissioners visit (not a requirement, but I went out and got a UC). All of these benefit the Pack.
And yes, to Shawn: I know of a couple units that just go to the Scout Shop and buy the knot and present it. LAME.
Knots count and matter. Hopefully those who wear them follow the Scout Oath and Law.
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Cubmaster Pack 221 Portland, OR WE1-492-09 Beaver Patrol, Staff WE1-492011, Blog:http://scouteradam.wordpress.com/
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8:27 pm
November 30, 2010
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Veretax
| | Hinton, WV | |
| PTC Bear | posts 68 |
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I don't understand why the Assistant Den Leaders do not qualify for the DL knot. Maybe I need to review them, but in our unit, we work hand in hand to lead the meetings its not like one does 90% of the work and the assistant is only there to do 10%. Personally. I don't care about knots so much.
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9:42 pm
November 30, 2010
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ScouterAdam
| | Portland, OR | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 86 |
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I think it's because it's because they are assistants. However, what I have been told have them listed as Den Leader on the Charter and your good to go.
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Cubmaster Pack 221 Portland, OR WE1-492-09 Beaver Patrol, Staff WE1-492011, Blog:http://scouteradam.wordpress.com/
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6:00 am
December 1, 2010
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Veretax
| | Hinton, WV | |
| PTC Bear | posts 68 |
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Post edited 6:01 am – December 1, 2010 by Veretax
Okay I found the following info on the site. And unless your wanting to be very hyperliteral I don't see anything that necessarily excludes the assistant den leaders from earning this award as an ADL.
Cub Scout Leader Recognition Awards
Cub Scout Den Leader Award
Tenure
Complete one year as a registered Cub Scout den leader.
Training
- Complete Cub Scout Den Leader Fast Start training.
- Complete This Is Scouting and Cub Scout Den Leader Specific Training.
- Complete Youth Protection training.
- During your tenure for this award, participate in a Cub Scout leader pow wow or university of Scouting, or attend at least four roundtables.
Performance
Do five of the following:
- During at least one program year, have a minimum of 50 percent of the Cub Scouts in your den earn the rank for their grade or age (Wolf or Bear).
- At least once, reregister a minimum of 75 percent of the eligible members of your den as a part of pack rechartering.
- Graduate a minimum of 60 percent of the eligible members of your den into Webelos Scouting.
- Have an assistant den leader or second adult who regularly meets with your den.
- Have a den chief who regularly meets with your den.
- Take leadership in planning and conducting a den service project.
- Conduct at least three den meetings per month, nine months per year, or follow an optional plan approved by the pack.
- Participate with your den in a Cub Scout day camp or Cub Scout resident camp experience.
- Hold regular den meeting and den activity planning sessions with your assistant den leader.
The only requirements that even mention the assistant are the two optional ones. One about a meeting, one about basically having. So I don't see any reason based on a plain interpretation why an ADL could not also earn this knot. (Now the Tiger and Webelos reqs may be different I didn't glance at those this morning.
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4:40 pm
December 1, 2010
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Ken
| | Scranton, PA | |
| PTC Bear | posts 70 |
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I was curious so I asked my registrar about this. She's not only a council employee, but a district and council training volunteer for decades (as in when I was a Cub Scout), and is a valuable resource to me for all things Scouting. So I have every reason to consider her answer to this as accurate. That said, add whatever weight you think that merits.
Here is her response:
Several years ago, you had to serve two years to earn each award – one could be as assistant and one as Den Leader. However, they changed this four or five years ago to one year service time; and it has to be as a Den Leader – not as assistant.
So there you go, sounds like they must be registered as the actual leader, not an assistant.
Ken
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12:17 pm
December 2, 2010
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smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 596 |
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People actually register folks as Assistant Den Leaders on their charters? Our Den Leaders are teams and even if one is the lead and the other assists, both are putting in a large amount of work that they both should be recognized for. I charter than both as Den Leaders instead of Asst. Den Leaders.
That said, in the end the only reason the official chartered position matters is if it matters to the people in the unit signing off on the award, because it doesn't get checked by anyone.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
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