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4:22 am
October 7, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 | 
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I would like to get the thought on the collective mass here.
As mentioned previously about 11 years ago I spent 3 months in the US working at a boy scout camp and one day I got accosted by a leader who lambasted me about the fact that in the UK we allowed Girls and Gay people (very non PC term but I can't think of a better one) to be involved with scouting.
I was told it was total against all that is scouting and not in keeping with the Scout Law etc etc. It had me reeling and reciting the Scout Law over in my head to check
A Scout is to be trusted.
A Scout is loyal.
A Scout is friendly and considerate.
A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.
(at that time I did not know you in the US have the extra line about Morally Straight)
This lambasting was certainly not respect for others.
However 10 years have no passed I am wondering what the feelings are now, if I am being honest I am really interested in the position on girls – The US is one of the few Scouting Nations that is still all male.
Have feelings mellowed on this issues? were they ever really as strong against as this Gentleman I met or was that personal feelings? Are people still passionately against?
Let me know
YIS
K
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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3:25 pm
October 7, 2009
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Scouter_Garry
| | SATX | |
| PTC Boy Scout | posts 106 |
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As one of the few countries with both a WOSM organization and a WAGGGS organization. I still find that While the BSA has changed its attitude to where people of the female gender can serve as leaders it is still pretty solidly against female youth in the two core programs of Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting. The BSA has grasped the fact that single parent families may mean that a female adult is going to be the involved parent. I have run across a friend who was basically excluded from scouts 35+ years ago because the troop didn't allow single mothers to camp with the troop.
As more religions move their view to accept people of alternate sexual lifestyle choices, the BSA may have to change it's view. These things normally take lifetimes to change and the BSA is considered to have very conservative values by many.
You'll find the Girl Scouts of the USA the WAGGGS member is very much more accepting of non-religous and alternate sexual lifestyle choices.
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5:39 am
October 8, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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Post edited 9:44 am – October 8, 2009 by Kiff76
wow I did not realise the the “No lady bits ban” applies to adults as well.
That does seem very odd because I thought Venture crews were co-Ed certainly the camp post at Longlake was CO-Ed
I know the US is a large geography and must be difficult for there to be consistency across the whole of Scouting.
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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8:57 am
October 8, 2009
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MISS Emily
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Post edited 12:59 pm – October 8, 2009 by emskuban
Chris, I'm replying to share a girl's view; however, this is a tread lightly conversation, as it is “Hot Button” topic, and PTC is a quiet, peaceful commuity.
First of all, I don't think “Gay people” is a non-PC term, as many homosexuals use that term to describe/define themselves!  I think Garry's statement is right on.
As a DL, and as a member of a pack where about 75% of the leadership is female, I can safely say that BSA doesn't ban female leaders now. I'm still looking for statistics on women's involvement in troops versus packs, as I suspect that Chris's statement of increased dad involvement at the troop level is accurate, but again, I don't have the data. As for my own den, only two of the parent partners are men– it's a den of 7. BSA did come on board fairly late with women being equal in leadership roles to men, but they are welcomed into all levels of leadership now. At least that is my understanding. Maybe Liberty could put more facts out there… either way keep watching, we'll be discussing female leaders much more around here! 
As for girls, gays and God (the 3 G's of BSA)– I do have personal opinions, which may or may not differ from BSA's stance, but that isn't really an issue to discuss in my position as a Den Leader. I am a BSA volunteer. I entered this position, knowing BSA's policies and will respect and follow them. (Otherwise, why would I have joined?) Personally, I admire Cubmaster Chris's line on this– “If BSA says that girls can join, I'll welcome girls into my den. If BSA says that they are starting a preschool program, I'll welcome the tikes into my pack.” I may have personal views on these issues, but as a volunteer of BSA, I am freely choosing to follow their policies until national sees fit to change them.
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MISS Emily, Committee Chair and DL Pack 103, Atlanta, GA **A proud Mother in Scouting Service along with MISS Sonia, MISS Liberty, and MISS Shannon**
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9:12 am
October 8, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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There is a very interesting debate here, and I promise I am not trying to get anyone noses out of joint I am just trying to bring myself up to date on bits of scouting I have come across around the world.
In the UK we have been Co-Ed since 1999 and there are still elements of the movement that say no to girls and feel that we should never have made the change.
The key thing to remember is that when BP created scouting he said "it was a Scouting Movement because it should always keep moving forward" and I think that statement is a prominent to day as it was a hundred odd years ago. We need to keep moving forward and accepting changes around us.
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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11:46 am
October 8, 2009
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Scouter_Garry
| | SATX | |
| PTC Boy Scout | posts 106 |
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The key variables in movement are direction and speed.
The BSA now has Females in many positions that were previously considered male only. My council employs about 50% female district executives. Few Charter Organizations still maintain the Scout Master must be male. That is their choice. In my district two of the three top positions are held by women.
Venturing groups in my area run from all male to co-ed to all female. I was quite surprised that a local sorority formed a Venture crew. They are very active in the council's high adventure program.
While I wish the BSA sometimes moved faster, I can appreciate the slower methodology they employ.
Prior to 1999, did the UK have a girl only option for girls? Does the girl only option still exist? Was the Girl only option related to the current organization?
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3:28 pm
October 8, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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Garry In answer to your question
Yes there is the Girl Guides, they celebrate there 100 year this year.In the UK they are the larger, stronger movement currently.
The Scout Association basically became co-ed as a way to bolster flagging numbers. They approached the Girl Guides and started a discussion about combining and becoming one movement, however the Scout Association really offered the Guides terms of surrender to which they said we are larger and stronger go shove it.
So the Scout Association said, umm ok how do we improve our number I know lets take in girls.
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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5:42 pm
October 8, 2009
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Nick the UK GSL
| | Newcastle-under-Lyme, Staffordshire, UK | |
| PTC Boy Scout | posts 146 |
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Kiff76 said
In the UK we have been Co-Ed since 1999 and there are still elements of the movement that say no to girls and feel that we should never have made the change.
Don't forget Chris that girls were able to join Ventures from 1976 onwards and I'm sure they could join the rest of the sections from 1991 onwards. However this was on a voluntry basis only, Groups could be all male until 1st January 2007 when the SA went fully co-ed.
The interesting thing from my point of view is that the BSA's Venturing programme seems to kept 'a bit quiet'. I only found out about it by looking round sites like PTC. Whenever the subject of girls and the BSA are brought up in the media Venturing is seldom mentioned – most odd!
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Nick Wood –
Group Scout Leader
1st Stoke-on-Trent & Newcastle, St. Andrews Porthill, UK
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10:00 pm
October 8, 2009
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MISS Liberty
| | California | |
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It was only as recent as 1988 that there was an official ruling that women couldn't be banned from any leadership positions within BSA. 1988 folks… that's not that long ago.
When I attended Wood Badge, our "Senior Patrol Leader" related a story in which there was mass exodus of long-time leaders when women were allowed in leadership roles. Rather than embrace and help welcome change, those men chose to step down. It happens. BSA recognizes that people don't like change so change is slow and thoughtful in order to maintain better stability and gradually bring about changes. (Whenever possible.)
In the end, I don't necessarily agree with all that BSA has stood by over the years, but as with anything, you take the good with the stuff you don't necessarily personally agree with and hope that there is mostly good. If not, you find another program that better suits, or try to implement slow, steady change as best as you can.
Right now in the BSA the LDS groups make up a very large contribution of BSA. They have very defined roles for women and men (women are NOT allowed to participate in their older boy youth program – they have different roles) and they most certainly will not tolerate gays in any sense of the world. BSA is in a fairly tight stronghold to maintain pleasant relations with the LDS BSA groups as they do make up such a strong portion of BSA as a whole and are such big contributors (time, money, etc.) So long as LDS ties Scouting in with their youth program, I don't see some of these rules ever letting up, but maybe I'm wrong.
I'm not entirely sure how I'd feel about a co-ed Scouting program, but in the end, if that's where change lead us, I'd be happy to go along with it because it wouldn't be done (I would hope) willy nilly, but rather would be done with the youth in mind following the Scout Oath and Law.
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"[S]He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which." ~ Douglas Adams
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4:34 am
October 9, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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Couple of questions are raised by your comments Liberty
1) what is LDS??
2) you mention Gays are not tolerated by the BSA – my questions is how would they know i mean really if a scout leaders is doing his job and well no one is going to look into his back ground and if they did they would probably see a single man. Unless every you have to be married to be a scout leader (On my honer I promise to do my best to do my duty to god and the queen to get married…….   )
3) I have to say that girl in Scouting is a good thing, It allows the boy to learn social interaction with girl and also challenges them because the girls in certain tasks kick there asses all over the place. It was very interesting when we went to the Jamboree we has a USA troop next but one to use on the camp site and being the closest english (1st language) speaking group they units gravitated to each other and the boys from the US (and I appreciate this was a very very small minority) were unable to interact with the girls normally it was all bravado and testosterone it was very interesting to watch where as out lads just had fun with the girls.
My scout troop does not have any girls and I wish I could get some to join however because we operate very close to a strong active guide troop and in the area the parents want their boys to be little boys and their girls to be little girls so none come our way. we do try and combine activities where possible partly because the other scout leader and I have a vested interest the guide leader is his partner and the assistant guide leader is my wife.
well that is all for now I think (can open worms every where  - run)
YIS
K
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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8:55 am
October 9, 2009
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MISS Emily
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LDS is Latter Day Saints aka Mormon. They have a big involvement in the BSA, and their packs/troops tend to be separate from non-LDS packs/troops and connected to their wards/branches.
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MISS Emily, Committee Chair and DL Pack 103, Atlanta, GA **A proud Mother in Scouting Service along with MISS Sonia, MISS Liberty, and MISS Shannon**
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9:26 am
October 9, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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Ahh thank you for the up date
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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10:53 am
October 9, 2009
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Scouter_Garry
| | SATX | |
| PTC Boy Scout | posts 106 |
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Liberty made a good point about the Latter Day Saints being a large part of the BSA. Many councils only have a few units from the LDS chruch. In my district we have 9 units, and 4 Commissioners from the LDS church. In talking with our LDS Commissioners last night, the church will only use the BSA as their male youth program as long as it does not allow gays in the ranks. The LDS church does not use the GSUSA because they open accept and in some councils support gays in their organization, nor do they adequately support duty to God. In this case the church has created their own program to meet the needs of their female youth.
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11:26 am
October 9, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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It really dissapoints me when scouting becomes tied up in Religion
Scouting is a Faith based organisation and as such we should not be bound to the Bo***ks that Religion brings, what happen when a Muslim family moves into the area are they rejected by the Scouting in the area.
My Scout group is the 43rd Bristol St Mary's and we are linked to a Church of England Church,
Or are suppose to be the Church has given up money for one round of programme support material and we attend a quarterly youth service but apart from that they do little else for us. To be honest the Parade service is really bad it is to long and either aimed at a level too low or totally relevant that I have to fight from falling asleep God only know how the YP's stay awake.
anyway if a scout of Muslim faith turned up at scouts on a Thursday he would be welcomed into the troop, if he wished to join us on church parade he would be welcome but as it is not his church he would not be forced to, I would find it a great opportunity to see if we could arrange a visit one service day to his Mosque and broaden the Faith based education of the Scouts
YIS
C
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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1:05 pm
October 9, 2009
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Cubmaster Chris
| | Cedar Park, Texas | |
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This thread is starting to feel like troll bait…
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3:14 pm
October 9, 2009
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SM Shawn
| | Green Bay, WI | |
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agreed, let's keep it helpful…
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Host of the True North Podcast
Co-Host of Scout Nation
Scoutmaster
Dad and Husband…
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5:00 pm
October 9, 2009
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smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |
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Specifically on the girls in Scouts, my opinion is that I don't think that the BSA should open up Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts to girls. It's called the Boy Scouts of America for a reason. I do really appreciate Venturing being coed and I think that between the Girl Scouts USA and the American Heritage Girls there are options for girls younger than 14 to be involved in Scouting.
That said, I have some personal issues with the way things are structured for the GS-USA. I won't comment on the politics side of it (religion and sexuality), I just don't like that some things are totally missing from their handbooks or badge books. For example, the Girl Scout (USA) Junior program is roughly equivalent in age range to the Cub Scout Webelos program. In Webelos, boys should already be coming in from their Bear year having had knife safety courses (Whittlin' Chip). Not one single word exists in all of the girl scout junior program referencing pocket knives and knife safety. This is the type of things I have issues with. I deal with it by supplementing my daughter's Scouting experience by doing knife safety with her on my own. Her Bronze award project is to make a council's own Junior badge on knife safety so that she can share that information with other girls.
The American Heritage Girls was started by parents who didn't like the way things were being done in Girl Scouts USA. They are a much smaller organization but are growing rapidly (and I daresay will be doing even moreso now that the BSA seems to have taken an interest in them). I believe that they are a faith-based organization and unlike the BSA whose position is more along the lines of "we don't care what you believe in so long as you believe in something," the AHG professes themselves to be a Christian organization.
While times change and with it accepted norms in society, some traditions remain and depending upon who is doing the looking they can appear as either pillars standing hard against the storm or the sore thumb that sticks out obviously. Maybe sometimes it's a little of both? Sometimes refusing to change just because it is change isn't doing anyone any good, but at the same time there is something to be said for traditions and holding to those traditions because they form the cornerstone of your organization's foundation.
I think what we're going to see is that the BSA gets more involved with the AHG in helping them get a nationwide structure of councils up and running. As I've said before, I wouldn't be suprised to see AHG professionals working in each BSA council office and piggybacking off the BSA for that structural support. I really really want to see an organization that runs as effectively and efficiently as the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts pop up for the female youth here in the USA; I just think that there are other organizations that have already been tasked with this and we should look to them and help them with achieving this aim instead of looking to the BSA to do so.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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5:15 pm
October 9, 2009
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Kiff76
| | Bristol, UK | |
| PTC Webelos | posts 91 |
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Cubmaster Chris said:
This thread is starting to feel like troll bait…
Troll bait never hear that expression
but I apologies if I am causing problems
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Chris Meadows – ACC Explorers – Avon Scout County nn*10 bins, 4 planks of wood, 3m of rope and a river full of crocodiles. Sounds like a normal Thursday night.
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3:30 pm
May 13, 2010
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smwalker_oh
| | Middletown, Ohio | |
| PTC Star Scout | posts 592 |
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Thought it would be worth a mention here that this month the minimum age to join Venturing dropped from 14 to 13, but I believe it also stipulates that you have to have completed 7th grade as well if you are 13.
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PT – Pack 19 Middletown
CR/CC – Pack, Troop & Crew 801 Middletown
MC, Packs 321, 418 & 468, Middletown
Hopewell District Cub Roundtable Commissioner
Hopewell 2011 Fall Recruitment Coordinator – Middletown
Dan Beard Council Certified Trainer
GSWO NOVA #449 Service Unit Camping Coordinator
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4:32 pm
May 13, 2010
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Scouter_Garry
| | SATX | |
| PTC Boy Scout | posts 106 |
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The Requirement is 14 years old or 13 years old and have completed 8th grade.
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